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Fraud and Financial Crime in NSW: Legislation, Case Law and Sentencing Principles

Fraud and financial crimes are a serious issue in New South Wales (NSW), with a significant impact on individuals, businesses, and the economy as a whole. These crimes encompass a wide range of illegal activities that are committed for financial gain, often at the expense of others. From fraud and money laundering to embezzlement and insider trading, financial crimes can take many forms and have far-reaching consequences. In NSW, the prevalence of financial crimes has led to the implementation of strict laws and regulations aimed at preventing and prosecuting these offences. However, despite these efforts, financial crimes continue to pose a significant threat to the financial stability and security of the state.

Fraud and financial crimes can have devastating effects on victims, leading to financial ruin, loss of trust, and emotional distress. Furthermore, the impact of these crimes extends beyond individual victims to society as a whole, undermining confidence in financial institutions and the integrity of the financial system. As such, it is crucial to understand the legal framework surrounding financial crimes in NSW, the common types of offences that occur, and the strategies for investigating and prosecuting these crimes. Additionally, it is important to consider the impact of financial crimes on victims and society, as well as potential measures for preventing and addressing these offences effectively.

Overview of Fraud Offences Under Part 4AA of the Crimes Act

Part 4AA of the Crimes Act establishes several offences related to fraud, each designed to address different forms of dishonest conduct that result in financial harm. These offences include obtaining property or financial advantages through deception, falsifying records, and making false statements with intent to deceive.

Primary Fraud Offence (Section 192E)

The main provision under Part 4AA, Section 192E, stipulates that a person is guilty of fraud if they, through any form of deception, dishonestly obtain property or a financial advantage, or cause financial disadvantage to another. This offence carries a maximum penalty of 10 years imprisonment. The broad language of Section 192E encompasses a wide range of deceptive behaviours, allowing it to cover many fraudulent activities.

Specified Activities with Intent to Defraud (Sections 192F and 192G)

Part 4AA also defines two offences related to specific fraudulent activities.

  1. Section 192F: This offence applies when a person dishonestly destroys or conceals any accounting record with the intent of obtaining another’s property or financial advantage, or causing a financial disadvantage.
  2. Section 192G: This provision criminalises making or publishing (or agreeing to make or publish) any statement that is false or misleading in a material particular with the intent of obtaining property or financial advantage, or causing financial disadvantage.

Both offences under Sections 192F and 192G carry a maximum penalty of 5 years imprisonment.

Fraud by Officers of Organisations (Section 192H)

The final offence under Part 4AA, Section 192H, applies specifically to officers of organisations. It states that an officer is guilty if, with the intention of deceiving the organisation’s members or creditors about its affairs, they dishonestly make or publish (or agree to make or publish) a statement that is or may be false or misleading in a material respect. This offence carries a maximum penalty of 7 years imprisonment.

Trial and Sentencing Procedures

Offences under Part 4AA are generally tried summarily unless either the prosecutor or the accused elects to proceed to a higher court. When finalised in the Local Court, a jurisdictional maximum of 2 years imprisonment applies for each offence, with a cumulative maximum of 5 years for multiple offences.

Legislative Background and Alignment with the Model Criminal Code

Part 4AA was introduced through the Crimes Amendment (Fraud, Identity and Forgery Offences) Act 2009, which came into effect in 2010. This amendment replaced several previous offences and aimed to bring New South Wales (NSW) law more in line with the national approach to fraud, as outlined in the Model Criminal Code (1995). However, not all aspects of the Model Criminal Code were adopted, and NSW continues to rely on common law for certain elements of fraud offences.

General Sentencing Principles for NSW Fraud Offences

Overview of Sentencing Principles

In New South Wales (NSW), sentencing for fraud offences involves a complex interplay of factors, with general deterrence playing a significant role. General deterrence aims to prevent others from committing similar crimes by imposing significant penalties on offenders. However, recent judicial decisions have nuanced this approach, suggesting that general deterrence should not always be the primary or pre-eminent consideration.

The Role of General Deterrence

General deterrence is a key factor in sentencing for fraud offences, as highlighted in cases such as R v Mungomery [2004] NSWCCA 450. The need to deter others from committing similar crimes is evident in fraud cases, which often involve a breach of trust and are difficult to detect and prosecute. For instance, in R v Donald [2013] NSWCCA 238, the prevalence of identity crimes necessitated a strong deterrent message to maintain public confidence in electronic banking systems. However, the emphasis on general deterrence has been tempered by recent decisions. Totaan v R [2022] NSWCCA 75 and Parente v R (2017) 96 NSWLR 633 emphasize that while deterrence is important, it should not overshadow other sentencing principles. These cases caution against treating general deterrence as the sole or overriding factor, especially when the text of the legislation and judicial discretion provide broader considerations.

Victim Impact and Community Harm

Fraud is not a victimless crime, despite the perception that some fraud offences lack identifiable victims. R v Curtis (No 3) [2016] NSWSC 866 underscores that offences like insider trading harm the broader community by undermining market integrity. Thus, the impact of fraud on the community and market integrity must be considered in sentencing, recognizing that even when specific victims are not evident, the societal harm is substantial.

Sentencing Young Offenders

The principles applicable to youth in the context of physical violence extend to fraud and financial deception. However, the sophistication and intelligence required to commit fraud can mitigate the impact of youth on sentencing. Singh v R [2020] NSWCCA 353 and Hartman v R [2011] NSWCCA 261 illustrate that youthful offenders involved in complex fraud schemes are judged based on their actions and level of sophistication, rather than their age alone. Courts consider whether the offending demonstrated a mature understanding of the crime, irrespective of the offender’s youth.

Limited Use of Sentencing Statistics

The utility of sentencing statistics in fraud cases is limited due to the significant variation in the circumstances surrounding each offence. R v Martin [2005] NSWCCA 190 and PC v R [2020] NSWCCA 147 highlight that statistical comparisons can be misleading, as fraud cases often involve unique objective and subjective factors. The court has expressed concerns about relying heavily on statistics, as they may not accurately reflect the nuances of individual cases. For example, Tweedie v R [2015] NSWCCA 71 reveals that limited data on specific fraud offences makes statistics less reliable for guiding sentencing decisions.

Objective Seriousness of Fraud Offences

Several factors are commonly considered in assessing the objective seriousness of fraud offences:

  1. Amount of Money Involved: The scale of financial loss is a critical factor. The greater the sum involved, the more serious the offence. R v Mungomery [2004] NSWCCA 450 and R v Todorovic [2008] NSWCCA 49 illustrate that large-scale frauds, such as Ponzi schemes, are viewed more severely due to the significant dishonesty involved.
  2. Duration of Offending: The length of time over which the fraud was committed can indicate the level of planning and premeditation. R v Pont [2000] NSWCCA 419 and R v Murtaza [2001] NSWCCA 336 emphasize that prolonged offences suggest deliberate and planned conduct, which impacts sentencing.
  3. Motivation: The motive behind the fraud—whether driven by greed or need—affects sentencing. R v Hill [2004] NSWCCA 257 and Cordoba v R [2021] NSWCCA 144 show that greed typically results in harsher sentences, although motive alone does not always mitigate the seriousness of the offence.
  4. Planning and Sophistication: The degree of planning and sophistication involved in the fraud impacts its seriousness. R v Murtaza [2001] NSWCCA 336 and Stevens v R [2009] NSWCCA 260 highlight that organised and sophisticated frauds are aggravating factors.
  5. Breach of Trust: Fraud often involves a breach of trust, which can be a significant aggravating factor. R v Pont [2000] NSWCCA 419 and R v Murtaza [2001] NSWCCA 336 discuss how breaches of trust, especially in professional settings, exacerbate the seriousness of the offence.

Sentencing for fraud offences in NSW involves a careful balance of general deterrence, victim impact, the offender’s age, the use of statistics, and various factors affecting the objective seriousness of the offence. Recent judicial decisions reflect a nuanced approach, emphasizing that while deterrence remains important, it should be integrated with other sentencing principles and the specific circumstances of each case.

Analysis of Section 21A of the Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act 1999 in NSW Sentencing

Section 21A of the Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act 1999 (NSW) outlines various aggravating and mitigating factors that courts must consider during sentencing. This section aims to guide the judicial discretion in determining appropriate sentences by identifying factors that may increase or decrease the severity of the sentence. This essay explores the limitations and applications of these factors, focusing on aggravating circumstances, including breach of trust, victim vulnerability, multiple victims, and organised criminal activity.

Limitations on Aggravating and Mitigating Factors

A fundamental principle in applying Section 21A is the prohibition against “double counting.” Factors integral to the offence cannot be considered aggravating features in themselves, as this would unfairly penalise the offender for elements that are already part of the offence’s definition. This principle is illustrated in R v Martin [2005] NSWCCA 190 and R v Wickham [2004] NSWCCA 193, where courts held that using factors inherent to the offence as aggravating elements constituted impermissible double counting. However, such factors can still be acknowledged as circumstances of the offence, as noted in Arvinthan v R [2022] NSWCCA 44.

Aggravating Factors Under Section 21A

  1. Breach of Trust (s 21A(2)(k))Section 21A(2)(k) allows for the consideration of a breach of trust as an aggravating factor, but only if breach of trust is not an element of the offence. In R v Martin [2005] NSWCCA 190, the court found that considering the breach of trust as an aggravating factor under s 21A(2)(k) was improper when it was already an element of the offence. Conversely, Lu v R [2014] NSWCCA 307 demonstrated that breach of trust can be an aggravating factor if it goes beyond the essential elements of the offence. For example, in cases involving fiduciaries like bank managers or solicitors, the abuse of a position of trust is an acknowledged aggravating factor when it is not an integral element of the offence.
  2. Vulnerability of Victims (s 21A(2)(l))The vulnerability of victims, as described in Section 21A(2)(l), is a relevant factor for aggravation, focusing on specific categories such as age, disability, or occupation. R v Tadrosse (2005) 65 NSWLR 740 illustrates that this factor is concerned with the vulnerability of victims within these categories rather than general vulnerability. The application of s 21A(2)(l) requires evidence that victims fall into the specified categories of vulnerability.
  3. Multiple Victims or Series of Criminal Acts (s 21A(2)(m))Section 21A(2)(m) addresses situations where a single offence involves multiple criminal acts or victims. This factor is significant when a single charge involves numerous fraudulent transactions, as seen in Johnston v R [2017] NSWCCA 53. However, it does not apply to separate offences committed against multiple victims, as this would lead to double counting. This principle was upheld in cases such as R v Tadrosse (2005) 65 NSWLR 740 and Clinton v R [2018] NSWCCA 66, where the court clarified that multiple offences should not be aggregated under s 21A(2)(m) if they are charged separately.
  4. Part of Planned or Organised Criminal Activity (s 21A(2)(n))Section 21A(2)(n) considers whether the offence was part of a planned or organised criminal activity. This factor acknowledges the seriousness of systematic and sophisticated criminal conduct. In R v Pont [2000] NSWCCA 419 and Yow v R [2010] NSWCCA 251, the courts recognised that offences involving deliberate planning and execution, particularly within an organised criminal syndicate, merit higher sentences due to the aggravating nature of such activities.
  5. Financial Gain (s 21A(2)(o))Financial gain, when a core element of the offence, can sometimes be an aggravating factor under s 21A(2)(o). However, this consideration must avoid double counting. Whyte v R [2019] NSWCCA 218 demonstrates that financial gain should not be counted as an aggravating factor if it is already intrinsic to the offence. Conversely, in cases where financial gain is not inherent, it may be considered an aggravating factor, as illustrated in Lee v R [2019] NSWCCA 15.

Mitigating Factors in Sentencing: Analysis Under Section 21A of the Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act 1999

In the context of sentencing under the Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act 1999 (NSW), mitigating factors play a crucial role in potentially reducing the severity of a sentence. Section 21A provides a framework for considering these factors, including the offender’s mental condition, absence of a criminal record, remorse, and guilty pleas. This essay examines these mitigating factors in detail, highlighting their application and relevance in sentencing, particularly in fraud cases.

Mental Condition

The mental condition of an offender is a significant mitigating factor, provided it demonstrates a causal connection to the commission of the offence. Under Section 21A, mental health issues such as cognitive impairment or psychiatric disorders must be assessed to determine their impact on the offending behaviour.

In R v Hinchliffe [2013] NSWCCA 327, the court found no causal link between the offender’s bipolar disorder and the offences committed, thus diminishing the relevance of this mental condition as a mitigating factor. Similarly, De Angelis v R [2015] NSWCCA 197 highlighted that a narcissistic personality disorder did not sufficiently affect the offender’s culpability to warrant a significant reduction in sentence. In contrast, Hartman v R [2011] NSWCCA 261 established a nexus between the offender’s psychiatric condition and their criminal behaviour, allowing for a reduction in moral culpability. R v Donald [2013] NSWCCA 238 and R v Joffe [2015] NSWSC 741 further illustrate that while mental conditions can mitigate moral culpability and the need for denunciation, they do not necessarily eliminate the need for general deterrence. Subramaniam v R [2013] NSWCCA 159 presents a complex case where the offender’s personality disorder was linked to their intellectual and emotional constraints, moderating their moral culpability.

Absence of Criminal Record and Prior Good Character

The absence of a prior criminal record and evidence of prior good character are traditional mitigating factors under Section 21A(3)(e) and (f). However, their impact may be lessened in cases of fraud, especially when the offender’s position of trust, derived from their good character, is abused. R v Gentz [1999] NSWCCA 285 illustrates that in fraud cases, where an offender’s good character is a factor in their appointment to a position of trust, general deterrence becomes a significant consideration, thereby reducing the mitigating value of prior good character.

Moreover, in cases involving repeated offences or elaborate schemes to evade detection, prior good character and the absence of a criminal record may carry diminished weight. R v Smith [2000] NSWCCA 140 and R v Phelan (1993) 66 A Crim R 446 demonstrate that continuous or sophisticated offending can overshadow the mitigating value of an offender’s past conduct. In R v Chan [2000] NSWCCA 345, a large number of offences committed over an extended period further reduced the significance of a previously clean criminal record.

Remorse Demonstrated by Making Reparation

Section 21A(3)(i) considers remorse demonstrated by making reparation as a mitigating factor. Remorse is more effectively demonstrated through tangible actions such as accepting responsibility and making reparation for the loss caused by the offence. R v Woodman [2001] NSWCCA 310 indicates that while restitution can reflect remorse, it cannot be used to purchase mitigation, particularly if it does not involve significant sacrifice. R v Phelan (1993) 66 A Crim R 446, R v Giallussi [1999] NSWCCA 56, and R v Strano [2002] NSWCCA 531 further illustrate that the degree of sacrifice in restitution and acknowledgment of the full consequences of criminal actions can be considered. Upadhyaya v R [2017] NSWCCA 162 emphasizes that reparation orders, especially when they reflect the forfeiture of ill-gotten gains, generally do not mitigate the sentence but can indicate remorse.

Guilty Plea

The statutory framework for guilty pleas is set out in Pt 3, Div 1A of the Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act 1999, which mandates discounts for guilty pleas in indictable offences. For fraud offences dealt with summarily, common law principles apply, and the complexity of the trial plays a role in the discount for a guilty plea. R v Todorovic [2008] NSWCCA 49 underscores that the length and complexity of a prospective trial are relevant to the utilitarian discount afforded for a guilty plea.

For Commonwealth offences, the approach may differ, as highlighted in [16-010] General sentencing principles applicable at plea of guilty: s 16A(2)(g), which outlines specific considerations for guilty pleas in federal cases.

Mitigating factors under Section 21A of the Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act 1999 provide a nuanced approach to sentencing, allowing for reductions based on mental condition, prior character, remorse, and guilty pleas. While these factors can significantly impact sentencing, their application must be carefully considered to avoid undermining the deterrent effect of sentencing and to ensure that justice is appropriately administered. The judicial interpretations and case law underscore the importance of evaluating each factor in the context of the offender’s actions and the broader implications for sentencing.

Section 21A of the Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act 1999 provides a framework for considering various aggravating and mitigating factors during sentencing. The prohibition against double counting ensures that factors integral to the offence are not unfairly penalised as aggravating features. Instead, factors such as breach of trust, victim vulnerability, multiple criminal acts, planned criminal activity, and financial gain must be carefully evaluated within the context of their relevance to the specific offence and circumstances. The judicial interpretations of these factors reflect a nuanced approach to sentencing, aiming to balance fairness with the need for deterrence and justice.

Summary

  • Financial crimes in NSW encompass a wide range of illegal activities that involve the misuse of financial resources and deception.
  • The legal framework in NSW provides definitions and regulations for various financial crimes such as fraud, money laundering, and identity theft.
  • Common types of financial crimes in NSW include investment fraud, cybercrime, tax evasion, and embezzlement.
  • Investigating and prosecuting financial crimes in NSW requires collaboration between law enforcement agencies, financial institutions, and regulatory bodies.
  • Defences and legal strategies for financial crimes in NSW may include proving lack of intent, challenging evidence, and demonstrating compliance with regulations.

Legal Framework and Definitions of Financial Crimes

In NSW, financial crimes are governed by a comprehensive legal framework that includes various statutes and regulations aimed at preventing, investigating, and prosecuting these offences. The Crimes Act 1900 (NSW) outlines a range of financial crimes, including fraud, forgery, and obtaining financial advantage by deception. Additionally, the Anti-Money Laundering and Counter-Terrorism Financing Act 2006 (Cth) sets out measures to combat money laundering and terrorist financing activities. These laws provide the foundation for addressing financial crimes in NSW and are supported by regulatory bodies such as the Australian Securities and Investments Commission (ASIC) and the Australian Transaction Reports and Analysis Centre (AUSTRAC).

Financial crimes are broadly defined as illegal activities that involve the misuse or misappropriation of funds or assets for personal gain. This can include deceptive practices, falsification of documents, or manipulation of financial markets. Common types of financial crimes in NSW include fraud, insider trading, bribery and corruption, money laundering, and cybercrime. Each of these offences carries specific legal definitions and penalties under NSW law, with the severity of punishment depending on the nature and scale of the crime. Understanding these legal definitions is crucial for effectively investigating and prosecuting financial crimes in NSW.

Common Types of Financial Crimes in NSW

Financial crimes in NSW encompass a wide range of illegal activities that are committed for monetary gain or to conceal illicit funds. One of the most prevalent types of financial crime is fraud, which involves deception or misrepresentation for the purpose of obtaining a financial advantage. This can include identity theft, credit card fraud, insurance fraud, and investment scams. Another common type of financial crime is money laundering, which involves disguising the origins of illegally obtained money to make it appear legitimate. This often involves complex schemes to move funds through multiple accounts or jurisdictions to obscure their source.

In addition to fraud and money laundering, insider trading is another significant financial crime in NSW. This offence occurs when individuals use non-public information to trade stocks or securities for personal gain. Bribery and corruption are also prevalent in NSW, involving the offering or acceptance of bribes or kickbacks to influence business decisions or gain an unfair advantage. Finally, cybercrime has become an increasingly prevalent form of financial crime, involving the use of technology to commit offences such as hacking, phishing, and online fraud. These common types of financial crimes pose significant challenges for law enforcement agencies and regulatory bodies in NSW.

Investigating and Prosecuting Financial Crimes

Investigating and prosecuting financial crimes in NSW requires a coordinated effort between law enforcement agencies, regulatory bodies, and legal professionals. The investigation process often involves gathering evidence, conducting interviews, and analysing financial records to establish the nature and extent of the offence. This may require collaboration with forensic accountants, computer experts, and other specialists to uncover complex financial schemes and transactions. Additionally, regulatory bodies such as ASIC and AUSTRAC play a crucial role in monitoring financial transactions and identifying suspicious activities that may indicate potential financial crimes.

Once sufficient evidence has been gathered, prosecuting financial crimes in NSW involves presenting a case before the courts to secure a conviction. This requires skilled legal professionals who are well-versed in the complexities of financial law and have experience in handling complex financial crime cases. The prosecution must demonstrate that the accused has committed the offence beyond a reasonable doubt, which can be challenging given the intricate nature of many financial crimes. As such, successful prosecution often relies on thorough investigation, effective use of evidence, and strong legal arguments.

Defences and Legal Strategies for Financial Crimes

Defending against allegations of financial crimes in NSW requires a strategic approach that takes into account the specific nature of the offence and the available evidence. Common defences for financial crimes may include lack of intent, mistake or duress, lack of evidence, or procedural irregularities. For example, in cases of fraud, a defendant may argue that they did not have the intent to deceive or that they were coerced into committing the offence. Additionally, legal professionals may challenge the admissibility of evidence or procedural errors in the investigation or prosecution process.

In addition to specific defences, legal strategies for defending against financial crime charges may involve negotiating plea bargains or seeking alternative resolutions such as diversion programs or restitution agreements. These strategies aim to mitigate potential penalties and minimise the impact of criminal charges on the accused. Skilled legal professionals with expertise in financial law are essential for developing effective defences and strategies for navigating the complexities of financial crime cases in NSW.

Impact of Financial Crimes on Victims and Society

The impact of financial crimes on victims can be devastating, leading to significant financial losses, emotional distress, and long-term repercussions. Victims of fraud or investment scams may suffer severe financial hardship and struggle to recover their losses. Identity theft can also have lasting effects on victims’ credit ratings and personal finances. Furthermore, the erosion of trust in financial institutions and markets due to insider trading or corruption can have far-reaching consequences for society as a whole.

The broader impact of financial crimes on society includes reduced confidence in the integrity of the financial system, increased regulatory burdens on businesses, and potential economic instability. The prevalence of money laundering can also facilitate other criminal activities such as drug trafficking or terrorism, posing a threat to national security. As such, addressing the impact of financial crimes requires not only effective investigation and prosecution but also measures to prevent these offences from occurring in the first place.

Conclusion and Recommendations for Preventing Financial Crimes

In conclusion, financial crimes pose a significant threat to individuals, businesses, and society as a whole in NSW. The legal framework surrounding these offences is complex and requires a coordinated effort from law enforcement agencies, regulatory bodies, and legal professionals to effectively investigate and prosecute offenders. Understanding the common types of financial crimes, as well as defences and legal strategies for addressing these offences, is crucial for combating this pervasive issue.

To prevent financial crimes in NSW, it is essential to implement robust regulatory measures, enhance public awareness of potential risks, and promote ethical business practices. This may involve strengthening anti-money laundering regulations, improving cybersecurity measures to prevent cybercrime, and providing resources for victims of financial crimes. Additionally, collaboration between government agencies, law enforcement bodies, and industry stakeholders is essential for developing comprehensive strategies to prevent and address financial crimes effectively.

By taking proactive measures to prevent financial crimes and holding offenders accountable through rigorous investigation and prosecution processes, NSW can work towards safeguarding its financial stability and protecting individuals from falling victim to these damaging offences.

In a recent article on financial crimes in New South Wales, legal experts at Jones Hardy Law provide valuable insights and defences for individuals facing charges related to fraud, robbery, and other white-collar crimes. For a comprehensive understanding of the legal implications and consequences of robbery in Australia, readers can refer to their article on Understanding the Legal Definition and Consequences of Robbery in Australia. Additionally, their clear guide on Fraud Under Australian Law offers essential information for navigating the complexities of fraud charges. Furthermore, their article on Understanding Complex Laws Simply sheds light on the legal aspects of white-collar crimes in Australia. These resources are invaluable for individuals seeking legal guidance and representation in financial crime cases.

FAQs

What are financial crimes in NSW?

Financial crimes in New South Wales (NSW) refer to a range of illegal activities that involve the misuse or misappropriation of funds, assets, or financial resources. These crimes can include fraud, embezzlement, money laundering, and other forms of financial misconduct.

What are some examples of financial crimes in NSW?

Examples of financial crimes in NSW include identity theft, credit card fraud, investment fraud, tax evasion, insider trading, and cybercrime. These crimes can have serious financial and legal consequences for individuals and businesses involved.

What are the legal insights and defences for financial crimes in NSW?

Legal insights and defences for financial crimes in NSW may include proving lack of intent, demonstrating a lack of evidence, or showing that the accused was coerced or misled into committing the crime. It is important to seek legal advice from a qualified lawyer who specializes in financial crimes to understand the specific defences available in each case.

What are the penalties for financial crimes in NSW?

Penalties for financial crimes in NSW can vary depending on the specific offense and the amount of money involved. Penalties may include fines, imprisonment, restitution, and other legal consequences. It is important to seek legal advice to understand the potential penalties for a specific financial crime.

How can individuals and businesses protect themselves from financial crimes in NSW?

To protect themselves from financial crimes in NSW, individuals and businesses can implement strong internal controls, conduct regular audits, and stay informed about the latest fraud prevention techniques. It is also important to report any suspicious activity to the appropriate authorities and seek legal advice if necessary.

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